Monday, March 10, 2008
How Do They Sleep at Night? Apparently Quite Comfortably
I've taken down my original post but want to leave a place to continue the commenting we've had on this one.
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Boise, Idaho, USA
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33 comments:
I wish I could sleep at night. Maybe if my husband were still pastoring things would be different. When he stepped down from pastoring I think he lost his celebrity status. Now he is just a regular person. Now one to worship him or want to cultivate relationship with him any more. It must be an awful shock to be judged for who you really are not hiding behind your title. Are these Pastors the newest American Idol?
No wonder these Pastors will do anything to maintain the status quo. They have a lot to lose if anything were to happen to their position in the church. Their whole life depends on it. The rest of us regular people can just move on to another church or stay home and detox. But not the pastor and his family. His home, his income, his very way of life depends on things going the way he wants them to. I think we have created a monster. These people will continue to sleep at night as long as there are people that want to be like them and rub shoulders with them and have someone to worship and associate with that seem to be living the life we all want to live. We have done it to ourselves! Going to a successful looking church and having a pastor that appears to be living the American Dream is nothing but a status symbol for all of us. Until we get back to the truth (Jesus) things will never change. And I do not think Jesus ever won any popularity contests! I think His idea of success is quite differnt than what the worlds is.
Very good observations Sleeping. We in the Christian Culture have enabled this whole celebrity driven worship fest by fanning the flames. But thankfully some of us, many more than we probably realize, are on to it now and have at least quit enabling the system ourselves. A lot of us think The Word of Faith American Idol Church is a crock and a sham. We lost Jesus in its tangled web -- he was nowhere to be seen.
Now we are on a qwest recover the true Jesus we lost, going back to when we first met him, embracing his true love for us again. We are contending for a faith that we allowed someone to steal from us.
So, your husband is better off now, even if he may not think he is, because he is at least on the path to the truth and living what is true.
My husband does not think he is better off now. In fact he will tell you he is so far away from God that he does not even know if he is saved anymore. He does not trust God and says, Why would I want to serve God? Look at what happened to me when I was serving Him with my whole heart. I lost everything.
At least when he was pastoring he probably at least faked being a decent person. Now I guess he has no audience to play to so my children and I just get the real deal. I believe I would have recognized this if I had met him out in the world but since it was in the church I was taken in. I feel so stupid.
We can sure relate to your feelings of being duped, taken, snowed. What's supposed to be a safe place turns out to be where your greatest hurts tally up.
Because we come to God in innocent trust at this 'safe' place we think what happens there reflects God's will and His feelings toward us. But because truth is laced with religiousness we are caught unawares and are surprised by what a lethal combination it is. It takes awhile to realize that God really thinks kindly toward us and feels compassion and does want our well being.
In our talks here we have admitted to sometimes being angry at God and we've too blamed him for allowing us to stay in a place that turned out to be unhealthy. So we can relate to your husband's anger. But then we've also come to the conclusion that HE'S the one who delivered us from such a place and He, true to his willingness to let us make choices, thought it best that we go through to get out. We had truly wanted that world and that's why we were there. But once the light went on and we knew how bad it truly was, then we cried out to Him for deliverance and He gave us a road of exodus.
Do you think your husband would be open to reading Toxic Faith?
nojoke: Yes I think my husband might read Toxic Faith.
My question is this. Do you think someone that has been a "Pastor King" will have a different kind of damage than a "Pew Warmer" that was groomed to serve them?
If Frank Damazio or your ex-pastor suddenly had to step down and found themselves demoted and no longer at the top would they feel the same as one of us who served them?
I guess what I am trying to figure out is this. Do the people that become leaders in these types of churches take on a different psychological profile than the people that are just part of the congregation? Or do the people that become leaders already have that kind of a mentality before they become leaders? Where does spiritual abuse originate?
Hi Sleeping...
I think we in the congregations or ones that have been on the staffs of Pastor Kings already had it ingrained into our psyche that we are less than or a cut below so we are humbled already. By the time we got out of the borderline cult environment our nothingness was already established. So when we revisit the scriptures 'in our right minds' we find that Jesus is actually all about serving rather than being served. It's so freeing to realize that we are all one in the same and that Jesus is the only elevated one--he was elevated on a cross so that we may have life.
Pastor Kings, on the other hand, fall to that place of humility from a pedestal that the people put them on but one that they may also had encouraged. When they are booted off the pedestal for whatever reasons against their will, then yes, I think they still may have to come to grips with the fact that they should have never been on the pedestal in the first place. Perhaps more ego is involved when they feel something they deserved was taken from them, instead of seeing it as the Lord removing them to protect them and bring them to a place of humility and healing. So it's like an extra step in the healing process.
My guess is once he/she realizes there is really no one more special than anyone else -- that we are all the congregation really -- then it's just dealing with recovery the same way as the rest of us have to deal with it. One day at a time, staying simple at the feet of Jesus, finding out what happened to us and contending for our own faith.
nojoke: This is a quote taken from the city business blog by detox church group. It describes how I feel about abusive churches and pastors myself. The problem I am having is that I married one of these people and I do not know how to deal with this in the context of a marriage. Please try to put yourself in my postition as you read your own words regarding these types. what would you do if you were me?
detox church group said: I never wanted to give up on Christ. He’s the sane one, the beautiful one, the all-loving one who listens and really cares about the condition of my heart and life. Who I want to give up on are Posers who use His name to do strange and controlling things to the people they have been entrusted with. In fact, I’ve pretty much written those types off. I have no room in my life for them anymore. My friend said it best the other day that they aren’t on the same team as we are. They aren’t allies, comrades, brethren who are slightly tweaked in the wrong direction. Unfortunately, because of their evil and controlling behaviour, who they resemble most are the enemies of Christ.
We’ve individually come to the conclusion that the boundary line has to be drawn and these types are not our types and we don’t want to be associated with them ever again. There can be a forgiveness but forgiveness is no cause stupidity and letting the Takers take all again — some of these people are sociopaths cloaked in their Religiousness and most of the church is too gullible to even see it. And the world is sitting by watching God’s people being duped over and over again. Why would they want to come to Christ if that’s what is going to happen to them??
wow Sleeping, first of all I just want to say I'm glad you happened upon our blog and I've appreciated that you seem to get what we are really saying. Also, your honesty is totally sobering because I realize that when we are feeling desperate all we CAN be is honest.
I'm not sure you really want to know what I'd do if I were married to a person the DeTox comment speaks of. I'm not sure I'm well enough yet to even give sound advice, because my first instinct would be to get as far away from him as possible, if he's a poser and a taker, an enemy on an opposite team than you. Or worse case scenario if you are finding that he is turning out to be a sociopath, I can't think of one reason to stay with him. (the book "The Sociopath Next Door" explains why.)
But if he's not all that and was just unfortunate enough to get caught up in the whole MFI thing and then burned by it, then I think you owe it to yourself to at least talk to him openly about how you feel--your assessment of where he was, who he was and where he is now. Of course, including yourself in the equation will be wise so he won't get totally defensive (if you just point the finger, you already know the reaction you'll get!). If he's open, you could share with him what you learn, have him read the books you are reading, or read them outloud a chapter or two a night if you guys are into that.
My friend and I were just talking today about the need for some sort of class or whatever to help those of us who do jump off the abusive ships. It's one thing to recognize abuse is happening and then getting away from it. But then what? Do we all need a 10-step program in reclaiming our faith? Our local church offers a 'Healed and Set Free' class for women who are in or were in abusive marriages, but we don't have a class for those who have suffered from spiritual abuse. So when you ask what would I do in your shoes I'm not sure because I'm just learning myself. Like I said my friend and I have just been taking one day at a time which has turned in to a few years-- one Sunday at a time because some Sunday's one of us may not even go to church even though the pastor at our new church is remarkably honest and open about his own blunders and never sets himself up higher than the rest of us. If you can find a voice like that to listen to it does wonders. It's not the end all but it's a step in the healing process -- it's helpful because when a normal servant-like pastor teaches from the Bible you find out that being a Christian is at least do-able and reminds you that Jesus is actually smiling at us and still has a plan for our lives.
I don't know if what I've said is helping much but I hope you find it reassuring that you aren't alone -- even if our circumstances aren't exactly the same and even our pain differs we can at least remind each other we aren't the crazy ones. God is doing something extraordinary and as the Bible says he will finish what he starts. I pray God gives you the wisdom you need and the strategy to carry out what you discern in the days to come with a perfect balance of boundaries and compassion in communicating with your husband. When you find out what to do or the Lord gives you a path to take in the next season, feel free to share it with us. There will be others like you who are married to pastor king-like people and will benefit greatly from your story.
Is there any other way to access Vortex DeTox besides going through City Business Blog? The only way I can get here is to go to City Business and click on the address you left on the "Discipleship Movement Rooted in the 70s" thread.
Thank you nojoke for the encouragement. Like I said before I will get the books you have recommended and see if anything they say addresses what I am going through.
We are going to a church where the pastor is more humble and has grace for hurting people but I do not know if he really knows what to do with us.
We were in counseling with a very good christian counselor also. This is where it gets confusing for me...... Anyway when were in counseling our counselor thought that my husband should go back to our pastor to get some spiritual help in the area of inner healing regarding his childhood or what happened to him in his last marriage while he was pastoring.
After the pastor saw him once or twice he sent him back to the counselor to get a complete psyhcological evaluation.The counselor sent him back to the pastor with that information so the pastor could begin addressing my husbands past.
That was over two years ago. Since then nothing has happened in regards to the original request from our counselor.
This is what I do not understand. What is a pastor anyway? They say they care about the sheep but if my husband or I do not get in touch with him he will not call us unless there is some special function at the church or if he has not heard from us for a long time he will finally call to see how things are going.
He knows our story. I have been very honest with him about where I am and what is going on in our home. My husband also.
When I have asked him why he does not call more often and he told me he has two hundred and fifty people in his congregation and he does not have time to make personal phone calls to all of them.
Don't these pastors understand that hurting people or even people that are completely turned away from God are not likely to be breaking their doors down to get help? If someone has been so damaged by the church doesn't it stand to reason that they might be reluctant to seek out the very kind of people that destroyed them in the past? Isn't it enought that we have made ourselves vunerable once again and are willing to try to get spiritual help if that is what our counselor is reccomending?
These pastors say they love you and that we are all part of the family but they are too busy to even spend the time needed to save someone in desparate need. Just come to church they say or go to the mens retreat or get involved on some level of church life and everything will begin to change for you. I wish that was all it took! That stuff doesn't even touch where we are. We need the medics! Both of our arms and legs are blown off! We are dying here! If the church doesn't even know what to do with their own what will they do with the hurting out in the world? The heroin addict? That homeless man sitting on that bench downtown that we all drive by every day? Molested children? Our next door neighbors having problems in their life? Is the answer for them to get themselves over to a church service and make themselves available to others? Or is something missing here?
It seems like talk is cheap in our churches. All these pastors want to do is sit behind a desk or stand behind a pulpit and talk about their next program created to keep us all so busy that we can't even get to the root of our own problems let alone go out into our community and help someone else! God help us all.
Hi Sleeping! So glad you're back. I really thought I'd scared you away with my honesty.
First of all here is the address to this blog so you don't have to take the long way here:
http://vortexdetox.blogspot.com/
Another thing you can do is save us in your favorites (In case you haven't done that before here's how--if you have, just skip this part: Click FAVORITES up there in your tool bar and then click ADD TO FAVORITES. Next time you want to visit Vortex DeTox it will be there in your Favorites--click on it and you'll end up here!)
Glad to read more of your story too since that helps with understanding where you are right now.
I have to say I totally get what you said about the nice pastor who just doesn't quite know what to do with you. That's how we feel here! Like I said in another post, there aren't any classes for those who have been spiritually abused. My friend often says, 'you can find us hiding behind the pillars!' We hardly have enough nerve to introduce ourselves let alone get involved in something at the local 'good' church.
But back to your story, did the counselor send you back to the pastor where your husband was hurt or to the newer humbler pastor you mentioned? If it was the dysfunctional pastor of his earlier days, I'm surprised that your counselor sent you back to the wolves so to speak. I totally understand getting to the root of your husbands' pain eventually but wouldn't it be like having to face your abusers or something? Aren't you supposed to be very ready for that sort of thing? I don't have a degree in counseling but even I know you need to be ready for that!
Apparently the PASTOR wasn't ready for it since he's been of no help to you since. So all it has done is compound your pain ('your' meaning you and your husband) and perhaps adding to the damage. There's so much to say on that I see red, so suffice it to say I totally agree with your assessment of where this pastor's heart is at (his programs and church life) and where the hearts of too many pastors are today. Granted there are those who care and really seek to help others but it seems they are few and far between. The callous self-seeking kingdom-building pastor seems to be epidemic these days. Look at this verse in Ezekiel about these types: Ezekiel 34:2 "...'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock?' " No doubt you've seen all the ones in Jeremiah. Here's one example: Jeremiah 23:1 "Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!" declares the LORD. then in v2 "Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: "Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done," declares the LORD." He goes on to promise good shepherds in v4 "I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing," declares the LORD. (wow, when is THAT going to happen? -- I realize this was written to another people in another time, but God's feelings about it surely must be the same today!)
So we are not imagining that there should be good and caring pastors among us and that God is really ticked off at the self-seeking ones. But maybe God's answer for this pastor thing will come in a form we've thought about but aren't quite ready to accept: the pastoring won't be one man, woman, or pastor-couple over a bunch of people. Maybe it's time for us to just take care of each other one on one--whoever the Lord sends to each of us or sends us to. We all understand the divine appointments concept and we don't have to wait for Sunday for those to happen.
I don't know--since some of us here have such trust issues, this could be my lack of trust speaking. But maybe it's right on.
Your question "What IS a pastor?" is so valid. It seems like we've all learned the hard way what a true pastor is NOT! And we all could certainly make a list! Why not, at least it can offer help for those of us who are refugees, worn out and scattered.
Hi nojoke. No, you did not scare me away with your honesty. I love it! I spent the next few days trying to figure out if my husband is a sociopath. Do you guys really think some of these pastors are sociopaths? Do you think your former pastor is one? From what I read my husband does not seem to be a sociopath but does have some of the characteristics of a narcissistic personality disorder. The biggest trait that comes to mind is his lack of empathy for others.
To answer your question about my story. No our counselor did not send my husband back to the abusive pastor. He sent him back to the one I said has some grace and understanding of what is going on. I wish he would just spend enough time with my husband to figure out whether or not my husband wants help or wants to continue doing what he is doing. It seems like in two years he should have figured out something one way or the other. He just has not spent enough time and that is what ticks me off. I just don't think these pastors are equipped or qualified to deal with these types of situations. That is where I get confused. Our counselor recognized that my husband needed something addressed in the spiritual realm so he sent him to a man of God. I know that someone has to be ready to face their pain but I am upset because I think that the pastor has not put in enough time to even ask the question. After two years I think there should be an answer to whether my husband wants help or not. That is all I want to know. If he wants to get help I will stand by him but if he just wants to continue in his toxic behavior I need to get away from him to protect myself and my children.
I totally agree with you about pastoring each other. I have had that happen in my own life where my friends and I or some of my family and I have ministered to each other at times.
My husband only has one friend that he sees only once in awhile. All of his pastor friends dropped him as soon as he stepped down from pastoring. I think there were a few that stuck by him while he was going through his divorce but as time went on they all dropped out of sight. Or maybe he did. So much for all of the close friendships he formed when he was in the ministry! Or maybe he is incapable of maintaining close friendships. I just don't know since all of this is mixed together with abusive churches. If I had to guess though I say that if you took the abusive churches out of the equation I think he would be his own problem because I think there are only certain types that are able to rise to the top in these places. Am I right?
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Maybe I am overspiritualizing this hoping for some miracle when the truth is I just married someone that just does not love me and wants out of the "mistake" he made. I feel like I am living in a house of mirrors! One side of me says I heard from God when I met this man and the other side of me says I just got duped again and need to face it!
Hi there Sleeping,
Good to know the honesty didn't put you off :-) Did you have to go to church yesterday? Just wondering. No, I didn't go. Some Sundays are just like that. I'm trying to go only when it's in my heart to go since I had to go so many years out of obligation to be a good example blah blah blah. When I DO go it's to authentically worship the Lord and learn of him but on the days I go against my better judgment it doesn't seem to go well if you know what i mean.
Btw, you have a comment from my croney FreedomThinker on the post DeTox Before You Start Something New! I'm so glad she jumped in! We can really use her voice on here! She's been so much help to all of us here and she's the one who turned us on to the great books! There are more we haven't listed yet!
Glad to know your counselor didn't send you back to the first pastor! But then it is sad that the 2nd pastor didn't engage so left you stranded so more pain. FreedomThinker comments on pastors who don't want to counsel so I won't go into it here.
I wonder if we are all too numbed to the needs of others since there is so much need in the world? Not just talking pastors here, but just all of us. How can we stare into the pain of others and ignore it? How do we get the empathy back? How does your husband become empathic? CAN he become empathic?
You really seem to be at a crossroads right in the here and now. We'll be praying for your next steps as you uncover and embrace the truth of where his heart is really at and whether he wants to change or not. I hope you keep us posted.
I'm gonna comment on pastor sociopaths separately so this post won't be even longer!
The Sociopath Next Door speaks of sociopaths being incapable of loving, usually charming with some sort of seductive power, and having no conscience. Yes, I think some of these pastors could fit that description, but it probably varies according to their background and whether they've given themselves over to their lower nature or not. It'd be interesting to know how many pastors and televangelists are sociopaths. I'm sure sociopaths are drawn to the gullible who are such easy prey in churches or those who watch Christian TV. . .
Freedom and I have discussed this in light of our former pastors. They may not be a 10 on a scale from 1 to 10 (being sociopaths) but they certainly could be a 5 or even a 7. It would explain why it's so easy for them to readily forget and dismiss the pain they caused everyone who leaves them (and believe me there are hundreds of us!) while they move happily onto the next golden boy or girl who stands in line drooling to be a part of their elite inner circle. (The reality is NO one can get close to them so the inner circle is a myth that the poor unsuspecting soul, who is on the outside looking in, falls prey to.) I guess we could say they at least have sociopathic tendencies driven by their selfish ambition. If they weren't blinded by the ambition they could probably focus on the needs of their people more.
I wonder if these pastor types start out with noble intensions but get caught up in the huge swell of the worshipfest they create by placing too much emphasis on the authority role of the senior pastor? They they believe their own press and it morphs even more.
Thank you for the insight nojoke.
I guess when we go through things like this we try to figure out what happened to us. It seems like if we can identify it then we can lable it and file it and move on.
After thirty years of this though I am about ready to set sail for Fantasy Island and never come back. It seems like I would have found a safe port by now. I guess that is why I am so pissed off. It is not like I haven't been here before. Where is the balance? I have tried so hard to rid myself of this stuff and still maintain my christianity. Is going it alone the answer? Is finding a group of other displaced christians the answer? I thought I did when I married my husband and found out these people are more screwed up than me and they were in leadership! He and I are coming at this spiritual stuff from two opposing sides. He had all of the position, authority, and assurance that he was doing everything right. I feel just the opposite. I feel more whole when I am not around that crap and he feels like he has lost everything. I feel like I have gained everything,(myself,my children, my family, my friends) and he thinks he has lost everything! Do you know where that puts me in his life? Nowhere. Because he doesn't have a life now. I like my life if I don't have someone or some group telling me there is something wrong wtih me or my kids or my dog or whatever else their critical and judgemental religious legalistic standard measures me against. I am sick of it. I do not even want to fit in with those types! My husband is so concerned with looking good on the outside he can not even see the things he needs to deal with on the inside. I am tired of apologizing for being human and for my kids not being perfect. Who in the hell do these people think they are? They think they can just move people around on their game of life with out any regard to others feelings? These churches have to be rooted in some kind of sociopathic disorder. Or maybe like my counselor says, that it is the nature of group dynamics. Are we going to soar like eagles or just stand around like a bunch of dumb sheep? It is time for me to take flight.......
Hey Sleeping ~
Sorry I didn't get to comment yesterday -- life interrupts blogging sometimes -- sigh.
When you said that you should have found a safe port by now it reminds me of my own feelings of shouldn't I have been mature enough in God to have seen through the layers of dysfunction at the ex-church. But it is what it is and looking back I can see that many times I COULD see through it but chose to believe God would bless me for sticking it out. Of course I was duped by the undercover teaching that they use as a scare tactic -- if you serve your leader no matter what he does or doesn't do, God will bless your life and if you don't honor their authority it won't go well with you. Eventually truth got the better of me and I realized hey I don't HAVE to live like this! This isn't what God is asking! So the only way to move past my regret of what now seems to be wasted years is to see that God felt it important enough to allow me to learn what not to do so that I'd know better what now to do. I now see how I was actually in rebellion to God more when I was worshipping a man and his family instead of truly worshipping God Himself. The irony is great authorities were using the rebellion to God jargon to try to get us to do stuff for them and keep us under their control. They LOVE the undercover doctrine because it works well for them. And we thought we were pleasing God by pleasing them.
But I realize by safe port you are also referring to family life which would fall in the shelter need category. I mean, we can live without a church but living without a spouse is more life altering. Although many people do survive without a spouse -- either by choice or by uncontrollable circumstances-- I imagine that there would be certain needs unmet. So can a person sacrifice emotionally or financially and ultimately that would be up to each person. But I'm sure you know all this. It's just the questions you would ask yourself and pray about before making changes. You are fortunate you have a counselor to talk things over with too.
One more thing -- I have said the very same thing before about not even wanting to fit in with types that care about the group mentality. Are we spiritual pioneers going further west to a place of freedom? Certainly not to start yet another group where people have to bow to the group dynamic. I rmember our former pastor calling people like us 'mavericks'. makes my blood boil -- like a maverick is a bad thing. If our forefathers hadn't have been Mavericks, where would America be today? I'd like to send former church a package with Maverick on the return address: Inside would be 10 reasons why I'd like to cause your building to cease to exist. ;-)
Hi nojoke,
You said: I'd like to send former church a package with Maverick on the return address: Inside would be 10 reasons why I'd like to cause your building to cease to exist. ;-)
Could you tell me what those 10 reasons would be?
Sure I have 10 reasons. But let me rephrase what I said earlier since I don't believe terminating the building would be a healthy or legal option:
10 Reasons why it'd be great if the building of our former church was no longer a church and was put to better use with another function:
1. The pastor family believes they are anointed by God to lead the church with very little counsel from anyone besides their cousins who live in another state.
So therefore anyone who begs to differ with the way they lead or asks legitimate questions of the leadership is considered rebellious in nature and a 'maverick'--someone who doesn't respect authority or someone who has a problem with authority.
2. Because of their elevated view of themselves, they make other feel less than which undermines the building up of the saints which is supposed to be their job description.
3. Evidence has revealed that offering money is consistently used to create a plush environment for themselves and their children even though they are a non-profit organziation with a 501(c)(3) status so don't have to pay taxes.
4. They freely use money collected for one thing and use it for something else. For example, when they appealed to the congregation to take a collection for the Katrina victims in Louisiana, the pastor later wanted to brain storm about what the church could use the money for in a meeting the next week (instead of sending it to the Katrina ppl). Needless to say, even his most loyal enablers were shocked.
5. They used $25,000 designated missions money for something other than missions. The missions director and his team raised that money to go on a missions trip one year, but it wasn't there when it was time to go. After that, the missions director was no longer allowed to know how much money was in the missions fund since he was so rightfully upset.
6. They accepted money later found to be corrupted to buy the national prayer center in washington dc which was trumped to be a place people could meet to pray for the government. People do come in small prescheduled groups to pray but because it's turned out to be the 2nd home of the senior pastor, very few, if any, ever stay the night not even for a fee. Instead those who spend quite the sum to fly to DC just to pray also have to pay for motel rooms. Why not turn the basement or one of the 3 upper levels into a room with bunkbeds and charge $50 a night? Why not open your home to those who volunteer to help you fulfill your dream of praying for our country? Why make it so hard for everybody just because it will be inconvenient for them to have the lowly in their house?
7. They have shown themselves to be consumed with image rather than reaching out to the community with the love of Christ. They have an image consultant on staff. The senior pastor has a personal shopper. The church owns an inhouse TV studio they use for podcasting but they aren't on TV. I suppose there's nothing too wrong with that but it just irks some of us who know a fruitful church across town who has to pay for live TV every week who could put that studio to better use.
8. There are few thriving fruitful ministries through this church. The children's ministry has been known to thrive depending on the gifting of the childrens' leaders. Most of the energy is focused on the youth and intern ministries which is good except they teach a legalistic undercover doctrine. Individualism is frowned upon like it's a bad thing. So it's not about the development of the youth individually but about how they can each help serve in the church. One problem. Only a few qualify to serve in the church.
9. They begin a new way of doing old things, and usually stop midstream to try another way. This seems to depend on what The Cousin's Church in another state is doing.
10. They have the same effect that a pharisee would have in your life if you were to meet one. To continue in the grace we all began with doesn't seem to be the thrust of the teaching. Therefore the atmosphere is heavier and more intense, instead of joyful and hopeful.
And these are my general reasons. I have some personal ones too but would like to spare you of those details.
Wow! nojoke are you sure you are talking about your former pastors? They sound like movie stars!
Since they have an in house TV studio I think you and your fellow detoxers should go to them and see if they would like to be the star of their very own TV show. You could call it the LIFESTYLES OF THE RICH AND SPIRITUAL. You could do tours of their homes and interview them and their families. From the looks of that picture at the top of this blog I think it could be a real hit. Or maybe you could do one called PIMP MY PULPIT!
Or just ask THEM, I am sure they probably have a script laying around for something already. They are usually a step ahead of everyone else as far aa self promotion goes!
Anyway on a more serious note you said that even his most loyal enablers were shocked when they wanted to use the money they got for the Katrina victims for something else.
Shocked is nice but did any of them say anything to him? Until people start uniting and standing together and doing something about these pastors nothing will change.
They preach unity but really there is no true unity because when it comes to standing for truth and justice most of us will stand alone. That is what they count on. If just one or two people at a time come to them behind closed doors they can handle that. That is why they spend so much of their time preaching against gossip and speaking against authority and all of the other teachings they have to keep people quiet.
As far as sparing me of the personal reasons, talk away. Nothing paints a more real picture of these people than what they do to others. Especially the ones they are called to love and serve.
Lol! If only we could do that! An expose' that exposes who they really are underneath the shroud of image they try so hard to create! you totally get it Sleeping!
As for the enablers, yes, one of them actually exclaimed "But it's for Katrina!" (so I heard) but that enabler is still there enabling. The person who told the story is no longer there much to his credit. I can't remember if he just left or tried to approach leadership first. He probably couldn't get an appointment like so many before him.
It should be called The Church of the Revolving Door since so many leave but so many newtimers visit since it seems somewhat 'normal' the first Sunday to most Charasmatic Christian Culture ppl. Of course, depending upon what cravings the newcomers have will determine how long they stay.
The longer you stay, the better glimpse you get of their dysfunction and weirdness.
nojoke, you said: The longer you stay, the better glimpse you get of their dysfunction and weirdness.
How long did you stay in the vortex? If you had to lable it what would you say is their particular dysfunction and weirdness?
I know for years I would try to go back to church and just put it all behind me and every time I tried I would end up totally weirded out again. I thought there must be something wrong with me but as time went on I realized I was picking up on the weirdness again. You have learned a great lesson and paid a huge price for the knowledge you have gained. Do not think there is something wrong with you that you are having a hard time fitting back in.
When I look back at the beginning of the relationship I am in now I remember picking up on some things my husband was doing and saying in regards to one of my children. Nothing I could put my finger on just some body language and other subtle things. I remember talking to him about it and getting some warning flags in his responses so I suggested we go to counseling with the counselor I had before I met him. This counselor was someone I trusted and had been helped greatly by. Anyway when we went to counseling and I shared how I was feeling and he questioned my husband (finance at the time)he told me that I was just reacting to him because of what my ex-husband had done to me. He explained it like a type of post tramatic stress in which we will respond to persieved stimuli with the same intensity as if the same thing is happening again even though it is not. I remember asking him what to do when these feelings began to come up inside of me and he told me to say "that was then, this is now." Anyway to make a long story short I got screwed because I trusted the "expert" instead of my own gut instincts! What my feelings were telling me were right on! This man turned out to be just as abusive towards my children as my ex-husband!
My point is this: We all have paid a very high price for the knowledge we have gained in the life situations we have been in. Sometimes it might be a reaction to something that happened to us in the past but more often then not it is because we are picking up on something not being quite right. How different my life would be right now if I had been encouraged to figure out for myself if what I was feeling was right or wrong. But I left it up to the experts to figure out. Of course when he questioned my future husband he knew all the right answers since had been a pastor and had counseled people himself.
My point is this: we are not damaged goods because of what has happened to us. Not if we have done the work and are involved in a healing process. Things are not going to be the same ever again. I do not think they are supposed to be. We are different. But it is a good different. When we walk back into churches or relationships with the knowledge we have it it not that we are damaged goods or afraid of getting hurt again. People that feel like that do not bother. We are actualy stronger and healthier than we think. The world and the church would like to tell us that we have baggage but I would like to think that I have weapons of warfare! We get it. We know. We have been there.
So WELL SAID on the damaged goods part. actually your entire post says it all so well. You'll have to keep us posted on the progress or non-progress your husband makes too, if you don't mind. We are praying for you in our own prayer way. In some ways, I think blogging is a prayer because we express our hearts and the Lord sees and hears that. Oh my, what would the lurkers say to THAT?? :-)
To answer your questions:
1. "How long did you stay in the vortex?" 20 years (wince)
2. "If you had to lable it what would you say is their particular dysfunction and weirdness?"
There are so many things. But here are the 2 that summarize:
1. They have an elistist perception of themselves fostered by the 'undercover' doctrine (John Bevere's book says it all and they love it) and the roots of that lie in dominionism which hopefully Freedom will be blogging on soon telling her findings from the research she's done.
2. They are dishonest with the tithe and offerings money. They feel they are entitled to much more than ministries of integrity live on.
I have a question. Are you still at the MFI church and if so, where does need to return come from? Not trying to pressure you if you are but here's some food for thought:
Once we made the decision to finally get off the ship, we didn't look back. In fact, we could barely drive by the building the first year or two let alone the thought of darkening the door! We can drive by now without breaking out into a sweat and granted we wish it were a USPS building instead of a church, but at least the emotions have simmered when we actually have to see the building. Are we progressing toward complete forgiveness?
We will soon get around to posting that list I was speaking of in "How Really Out ARE You?" How to determine if one is really out or not. what kind of hungers do we have? are we stilling looking for a certain kind of worship? do we miss the prophetic flow and atmosphere? do we think the answer to all our problems lies in a great move of God that sweeps everyone into the kingdom at once? If so, then the temptation to subject ourselves to the old abuses could still have sway and unfortunately keep us from the freedom to pursue the true Jesus we lost there in the first place. He's not there in there. He left a loooong time ago. He's out here with the rest of us misfits! :-) Ya!
nojoke, please do pray for my husband and for me. Thank you so much. Pray that I do not blow it and get in the way of what God is trying to do. Daily rejection is hard to take.
As far as your old pastors are concerned where do they get that eletist perception of themselves? I just do not get it. What happened to servant leadership? Did they forget that the least among us will be the greatest? I thought God's kingdon was a backwards kingdom so why do all of these churches look so much like the world they all tell us to stay away from?
No, I am not at an MFI church. I think Rhema was the last MFI church I was in. After Rhema I did not go back to church for about 10 years. What I meant by trying to got back was that once in awhile I would try to go back to a group of people that had split off from the Rhema church when Gail Bryan stepped down. You see it caused a huge split between the people that were disgusted with what he had done and the ones that were still the loyal followers to the end. Anyway I would try to go to the church that had left the loyal followers and everytime I did I just had to leave. I just could not stand to be around all of those people that had just moved on and really did not care about all of the people that had been devastated by Gail Bryan. You see when I left Rhema it was before they discovered that Gail Bryan was sleeping with women in the congregation. I left because of the legalism and other issues that left me a spiritual train wreck. Eventually the two groups got back together and became Clf. Doug Cotton became the pastor. Anyway I never could fit back in because I could not stand the legalism and all of the other stuff that goes along with that. I do not want to bore you with the details but when my last marriage got real bad I decided to try to find a church again. I was desparate for God and needed support. I have zigged and zagged through three of them and am now attending the fourth one. In the first one the pastor was very supportive of my situation because the pastor understood abuse. Needless to say my husband did not like it there so we ended up in an assembly of God that was very legalistic and controlling. My ex-husband still attends there. What a joke! He loves it. The pastor there loves him too. A match made in heaven.
Anyway I escaped that church and my abusive marriage and ended up in a non-denominational church under a group called FCL. Have you ever heard of it? Same crap different name. After I was there for about 2 months there was a big split and a guy named Rod Hill took half of the congregation with him and started his own church. Anyway he later left town in the middle of the night after it was discoverd that he was sleeping with several women in his congregation. Another joke.( at least I had sense enough not to follow the pervert in the split) Of course maybe if I had I would not have ended up marrying the "former pastor" I would have just gotten molested by Rod Hill. ha ha ha. I think instead of changing churches I need to change cities! This place is creepy.
No, I'm not bored by the detials S. I really appreciate the history because following the CBC blog, I'd get confused at the various names thrown in there -- so it clears it up for me. wow. How did it come about that your husband became the former pastor if you don't mind my asking. Speaking of husbands, I just emailed a friend saying that we are not ultimately responsible for our husbands -- they make their own decisions. We can pray for them and encourage in whatever way, but we don't need to enable dysfunction. I guess it's a process of releasing them to the Lord and allowing him to what's needed. Sounds like you know that. The fact that you don't want to get in the way of what God's trying to do means you won't. I'm sure the HS will tip you off if you begin to cause any interference.
We empathize with you thinking a place can be creepy. More often than not, we have thought Boise has some weird spiritual dynamic -- it certainly has one of covering up things and people not being heard or seen etc. However, Calvary Chapel Boise has broken through it all somehow and is the first really big church in Boise(the others all remain small or if they do get bigger they teeter off at 1200 or so bcz of their self inflicted weirdnesses). It's amazing Calvary is so healthy and big at the same time. It's still Christian Culture though, and so because of that, weirdness happens with running into individuals that speak Christianeze and all that. (Bob, the pastor speaks none of that thankfully!) But for the most part it's the best Christian environment here. It's great cuz Bob can be seen on TV 3 or 4 times a week so you don't even have to go to church if the culture can't be stomached that week.
Any chance you have a Calvary Chapel in your area? Whether small or large, their overall approach is simplicity itself and Jesus can be found in the absense of all the hype Charismatic churches tend to get swallowed up in. the worship is mellower and some ex-charismatics have a hard time with that, but it's pure and a great discipline to actually learn to be quiet before the Lord and not whipped up into some frenzy. That's probably more authentic worship anyway. I don't miss the other at all. I have to say there's nothing of former world that attracts me. I just must be so done with it now that there's nothing left to want from it. that's just where i am at -- not saying everyone has to be 'there' -- but I am liking it. It's kind of like moving to France and deciding to stay there.
Hi nojoke, I knew when I said "THE" former pastor that you were probably going to think that I was talking about the one from the church that Rod Hill split off from. I should have said "A" former psstor meaning he used to be one somewhere else before I met him at the church that split.
I know what you mean when you say we are not responsible for our husbands and that they make their own decisions. I guess what I struggle with is the whole thing regarding abuse and making decisions that could ultimately end my marriage.It is like pulling the plug when someone is on life support. I don't think I could ever do that because I would always be holding out for God to perform a miracle. That is the way I view my marriage. I don't think I can make the call. I keep waiting on God or circumstances to change one way or another so I don't have to pull the plug. I don't know if that is faith or fear. I can't tell the difference. I have a tendency to stay in situations way too long thinking that I am waiting on God to show me what to do. My friend said God has probably been shouting it in my ear but I just can not hear him! I wish I had the average American male that just did the average guy stuff. I think I could manuver my way through that pretty good. You know how you got out of the crazy church and how great it feels just to be in your average,everyday church? That is what kind of relationship I would like to be in. Just a normal one. Not perfect, just normal.
We do have a Calvary Chapel in our town. It is a little one in an old store front. I have thought of going there. Our counselor suggested that we go to a mainstream church for a while and get away from the weirdness. I have not been ready to deal with any new situations so I put it on the back burner. Also my daughter is involved in the youth group where we attend now so I have not wanted to uproot her. I also have a couple of close friends that attend and they have been a real support to me over the past several years. They are the only real friends I have ever had in church in all of these years. And I did not even meet them in church I met one through my sister and the other one through a friend outside of church. After 20 years we have ended up at the same church. Things are never just black and white are they? I guess that is why we need the Holy Spirit. I think that is one of my core issues. In abusive churches they rob you of your ability to hear from God yourself and in an abusive marriage your partner wants you to second guess and question yourself if you have thoughts and feelings contrary to theirs. No wonder I am screwed up!
But...... I do hear from God and in those areas where I appear to be deaf because of my own dysfunction I am counting on Him to heal me. I am trusting in the scripture that "all things work together for my good" otherwise I am in big trouble!
Sleeping -
You said:
"I struggle with is the whole thing regarding abuse and making decisions that could ultimately end my marriage.It is like pulling the plug when someone is on life support. I don't think I could ever do that because I would always be holding out for God to perform a miracle"
I can't help but wonder how abusive he is to you and your children. (You don't have to answer that publically.) I may get alittle blunt here since abuse sends me into orbit when I just hear the word.
If you are holding out for God to change someone who isn't choosing change, that's what I meant about not taking on a responsibility that isn't yours to take on. You may have a high tolerance of abuse due to a history of abuse but don't you owe it to your children not to subject them to whatever he's doing? It sounds like you need to use that energy to take responsibility for yourself and your children in whatever form that plays out. Ultimately the decision is yours and how long your choose to wait is up to you and it sounds like you know that from what you said about hearing from God for yourself. But it also sounds like there's some leftover Stepford Wives thinking (you are his life support system and you can pray in the miracle) that you couldn't help develop being in a legalistic cult-like church for so long.
What comes to mind is the abuse is not your fault, it's his bad behavior. You may not be able to control that, but you CAN control the enablement factor. If you do decide to remove yourself for your (emotional and/or physical) safety and the safety of your children, then God may have more of a chance to get his attention if you arent there to enable the bad behavior. I'm saying this without all the facts though (I'm not fishing for facts just saying this is my perspective from what you've said in your posts from the beginning.) --
It IS very common knowledge that abusers have enablers in their lives and that's why they can abuse. Tragically some stay in the abuse too long and too late. Our whole society BACKS UP abuse victims and I think God does too. Anyone could make the mistake of falling into the hands of an abuser because abusers are GOOD at posing as one thing and revealing their true nature later once they get what they want. When the deception is discovered, we nned to call them on it. If they refuse to get help, even if they cry with a million apologies, then don't we need to cut our losses and start again? God would NEVER ask you to tolerate abuse for Him. It's just not what He's about.
nojoke, I guess I need to retract the statement you quoted, it sounds stupid reading it now. Things are not that cut and dried although a part of me does see things that way. I guess I need to clarify what I mean by abuse. If it was just a matter of physical abuse it would be pretty black and white and I would know exactly what to do. I am not being physically abused and neither are my children.
I hesitate to even try to put down into words what is going on here and I do not even know if I can right now because the risk of being misunderstood seems unbearable to me. I think the root of my pain is wrapped up in that. Not being understood in that area of my life as a woman, a wife and a mother. My kids not being understood and loved for who they are. That is all I can say about it right now.
As far as holding out for God to change someone right now I am hoping for that while the practical part of me is weighing my options and trying to figure out what to do next. I am sure there is some form of Steppford wives thinking going on here but I really try to be in reality and make decisions based on what is best for my kids. We bought a great big old house together and that is what is holding things up. You see my oldest son rents the basement apartment,my 17 year old daughter is here and has one more year of high school left and I have a 19 year old girl living here that is an orphan and considers this her family now. I don't have a job right now. I worked for the first three years of our marriage while he was going to college. He got his degree and started full time work last November. I am supposed to start college in the fall and have a job where I can do my internship as a certified nurtritional therepist starting then too.(It's my turn now!)
Sooo...... the problem I am having is trying to figure out how to keep a secure home for myself and my children if we get a divorce right now. I have no way to buy him out and keep the house until I get a job and if I left and took everyone with me I would have the same problem because I don't have a job and the rent I would have to pay somewhere else would be just as much as my housepayment is here. My kids and I have talked and they understand what is going on and how I am stuck financially right now. I am sure there are things that I don't see or haven't thought of yet but this is as far as I've got.
As far as prayihng in the miracle I have to ask forgiveness daily because I hate him for what he has done to me and my kids. You could be right about the life support system though. I do feel responsible to get him the help he needs through counseling or whatever since I have more of an understanding of what is going on and my children and I are the ones that are hurting. You know what they say "The one that cares the least controls the situation".
nojoke, you wanted to know how abusive my husband is to me and my children. I think I will start out with an excerpt from a book that a counselor recomended to me in my last marriage. It filled in a huge gap for me since friends, pastors and others were mainly concerned whether or not I or my children were being pyscially abused. The name of the book is called "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans.
11, Do women unconsciously choose ausers to deal with their unresolved issues?
answer: Most women choose mates who court them. Women usually experience an attentive and affectionate person because while he's courting her, his approach to her is conciliatory. However, once he's "gotten" her, if he believes that "now" he has certain entitlements and pregoatives, is somehow superior, is inferior if he shows vilnerability and warmth, is weak if he reveals his own feelings, is born to be in charge of a woman, has no responsibility to build and maintain the relatioship, should be the center of her attention and she should do his bidding, his attitude toward her and treatment of her will change. This change is most confusing to a woman. She may long remember how he was- and for just as long, hipe that he will be that way again.
Sorry about the spelling and\or typing. It was late and I got too tired to proofread!
Hi Sleeping ~
No worries about spelling and such. Sometimes we just need to get the post out!
That sounds like a good book and I agree with the premise--it sounds like it's about verbal abuse being just as terrible as physical abuse.
I suppose the concern for your safety surfaces first but is followed closely by concern for your emotional and mental well-being. Not that the latter is any less important, it's just a natural order I think. If you and your children were in physical danger, you most likely wouldn't have the freedom to wait it out like you are now doing. You mentioned that is because of the financial dilemma in which you find yourself. I can see why this would be really hard.
Some days I have the utmost faith in God's ability to bring change in a person's life, no matter how difficult the circumstance or how hard the heart. Other days, when I think of men and women who don't allow the change and keep abusing those around them, I just feel cynical and wonder why they get away with so much year after year.
I think Christians have suffered far too long in the name of unconditional love when they've needed to ask the Lord to help them implement tough love instead. People in cults say the same things as Christians do about the love and forgiveness being the most important thing. But perhaps the truest kind of love is the toughest.
But I am not an expert in all of this. I'm an observer who's learned something from finally bailing from a place of dysfunction and twisted scripture deception in a church. Even though there are similarities, making the comparison to what you are going through could minimize the gravity of your type of situation and I'd never want to do that. I can only hope and pray that the Lord moves on your behalf and rescues you -- however it happens -- through a miraculous turning of your husband's heart or the miraculous provision needed to change your address (or his).
Keep us posted SWTE (The initials to your username looks like Sweetie!) :-)
Sweetie.... now that is something that I have not been called in a long time! Years ago when I was a little girl I think I might have been seen that way. I was timid and compliant and wanted to please.. As I got older I was so bound by fear in so many areas of my life that it has only been by the grace of God that I have made it this far. And it all came out of the experience I went through at Rhema and my first marriage. So I guess I need to be thankful for those times in my life because God was using those situations to change me. He is changing me from a fearful, insecure woman to one with courage and faith. It is funny because the very qualities that I have gained from the work that God has done in my life are the ones that controlling and abusive people do not like. . Living someone else's version of the "truth" gets harder and harder the more I get a hold of God's truth regarding these situations in my life.
The type of abuse I am talking about is very hard for most people to understand because the world is just now coming out against physical abuse and they have heard a lot about that. It is like you were saying about spiritual abuse. There are no classes you can take to get healed so you must find others like yourself and try to limp along together and hope to come up with something that works. The same goes for emotional and psychological abuse. It wasn't until a counselor told me to get that book on verbally abusive relationships that I started to get free. Someone finally had a name for what he was doing to me and my children.
I also believe that this is a form of spiritual abuse that I am suffering maybe mixed in with some verbal and emotional.. He still lives under a lot of the legalism he adopted in the church he was in. Remember he did not leave because he figured it out. He stepped down from pastoring because his wife left him. Most of what he does he believes he is entitled to do just because he is the head of the home. That makes it hard to deal with because he does not think he is doing anything wrong. He can’t understand why everyone is not standing around worshipping him while he decides whether or not he even wants to acknowledge your existence. Remember how they get rid of people in the abusive churches? Well that is his mission here. To systematically get rid of every one of my children and anyone or anything else he cannot control.
You said: Some days I have the utmost faith in God's ability to bring change in a person's life, no matter how difficult the circumstance or how hard the heart. Other days, when I think of men and women who don't allow the change and keep abusing those around them, I just feel cynical and wonder why they get away with so much year after year.
I think Christians have suffered far too long in the name of unconditional love when they've needed to ask the Lord to help them implement tough love instead. People in cults say the same things as Christians do about the love and forgiveness being the most important thing. But perhaps the truest kind of love is the toughest.
You are so right nojoke! I want you to know that I am not just sitting here keeping my mouth shut and forgiving him while he continues to walk all over us. I have been very open and honest with him about where I am at with what he has done. He has been told by the counselor and the pastor that he is wrong and his toxic anger is out of proportion to the stimulus.. The guy is a control freak and used to getting his way. The reason he has toxic anger is because I won't let him get away with it! So do not think I am just sitting here wringing my hands and putting up with his crap. I am not. One way or another he IS going to change. Like you said either himself or his address. I have moved into another bedroom and the kids do not want anything to do with him. He works nights so he is not here in the evenings. It is so wonderful to have peace in my home in the evenings without the warden around. He is a corrections officer and even his sargeant told him he was too black and white! He is too much of a hard ass to even work in a prison! Does that tell you anything? No wonder he made such a great pastor for the MfI church he was in. I am so pissed off you cannot even imagine. I tried so hard to change and not end up this way again. I really thought God was in this. I am beyond cynical. My only hope is that God will rescue me because so far the "tough love" is just making him more enraged, withdrawn and determined to "win".
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