As with any form of abuse, human behavior shows that we gravitate toward what has hurt us in the past. Getting healed and functional in an area is certainly vital before hurling headlong into the same abuse again. Often the abused becomes the abuser so the need to at least undo what's been done should take place in us first, if not a complete recreation of the soul, before taking on something new. And what's the hurry? Is it an ego trip or insecurity issue? It could be and it's something we all deal with.
Yes, it's been uncomfortable at times when we don't give in to the common expectations of the Christian Culture to serve in the local church in some way. Especially when the church is a healthy fruitful one. But we've been listening to a voice within that we do believe is from the Holy Spirit, to wait till he gives a green light to that type of thing. Well, at least that's what our general concensus is. We all hear from him individually and in essence he's been reminding some of us that we aren't ready yet.
Maybe we'll never be completely without the long term effects of what we went through. But that doesn't mean that the Lord wouldnt want to work on us for at least some semblance of health, giving us time to reclaim our own faith, and the opportunity to be happy again, and eventually even be a better help to those who go through what we've gone through.Meanwhile the Lord is faithful to 'use us' to confirm to others who are in the same 'place' that they aren't crazy and to take comfort in the fact that their faith is intact and that's a good thing.
We may still break out into a sweat if we see an offering basket go by or hear a plea for help from the children's ministry on Sundays. We are obviously not ready to do anything more than be a part of the throng (when we can even do that) knowing that it would be a disservice to the church to engage while still under diress.
To summarize, each person has a different time line and a unique path of ministry. Some of us may never help at a church again. Ministry is being redefined completely as we let the Lord recreate us for whatever the next step is--in or out of a church. That's the most healing thing of all, knowing that God isn't limited to the four walls of a building.
43 comments:
One example is a group left our former church and started their own church without taking any time whatsoever to allow the Lord to get the old junk from former world off of them. Of course, the leader seems to manifest pride issues anyway, so he, and so they, didn't feel they NEEDED any healing or tweaking.
So now, a couple years later, they are a mini version of former church even though they promised their followers that they would be different. The same kind of pastor worship goes on there -- hurl -- and the culture is identical to former church with its strong-arm pressure to do all things church oriented. It's like they have no concept of life outside the church nor would they dream of any activity outside the church having any validity.
The fruit of it is the same as former church yet in its earlier stages. I'm sure the pastor bellows on about the offering every Sunday already like he used to do when he was at the former church (he was on staff and would often do offering sermonettes on why you need to give beyond your tithe.).
I have always wanted to have an honest discussion with someone about these issues but the other blogs about Church seem to be Vortexes of their own. Meaning if you don't agree with their "Group Think" then you get treated as poorly as they say Christians who go to church treat people.
It's amazing that the people at Citybusiness have become exactly what they hate about people they are trying to stand against.
You folks seem to have a more humble approach. I hope you will keep it.
"Detox before jumping into something new" is a wonderful idea. However before I left my abusive church I met and married a former MFI pastor. How do I detox from that?
I think I must have fallen into another vortex here or else everyone is on vacation! Anyway I would really like to know if anyone has any idea how to deal with someone steeped in this legalistic mindset.
Hello, hello is anyone out there?
Just me again. Help! tomorrow is Sunday and my husband is going to want to go to church again. I don't think I can keep this up much longer!
Sleeping,
So sorry we missed your comments! You've probably given up on us and I apologize.
There's a really helpful guy who is actually writing a book that involves the legalistic mindset and is intimately acquainted with MFI. You can find him on another blog (with lots of ex-MFIers who post so you'd be in good company) called "City Business Church - a place to Tithe!" It's actually a parady blog on City Bible which is the mother church to all MFI as you probably know. The gentleman's name is David Mackin and the url to the blog is http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/
There are also some books that REALLY helped us when we got out of the Vortex. Most bookstores carry them - or try Amazon.com:
BOUNDARIES by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend
TOXIC CHURCHES-Restoration from Spritual Abuse by Marc Dupont
TOXIC FAITH by Stephen Arterburn and Jack Felton
Reading these books can help you even while married to someone who may not want to remain free of the vortex. You are who you need to build up right now and by reading you are taking the first step of doing something proactive for your own faith.
Hope you check back and we didn't miss you entirely. We are here now and won't disappear again (this is our first blog to be honest so bear with us!)
Your Out of the Vortex Friends
mojoke: Thank you for the books. I have read the boundary book but not the other two. Maybe I need one called Toxic Pastors instead of Toxic Churches!
As far as the other blog goes I would have to agree with justaskin about citybusiness. I have had to detox from that for the last several months. For every one person that showed empathy and understanding there were about five others that enjoyed accusing you of being bitter and unforgiving. In my opinion it was just another form of spiritual abuse and I certainly do not need that right now. They would be in the heighth of their glory if I were ever to have shared this with them. I could not risk it.
About the books: Toxic Churches confirms much of what you may already know about what is abusive leadership. Toxic Faith really hits home some of what you go through as a result of being in a toxic church such as not being able to read the Bible for awhile (and beyond awhile!) because we hear it in the negative voices of the past leadership. It takes time to be healed of any kind of abuse including spiritual. It makes sense that the Lord would take time with us to dismantle the faulty stuff that seeped into the temple of our hearts in order to begin to build a healthy one. Or like the Bible infers about the weeds being sown in with the healthy plants -- he has to carefully separate it.
About the other blog: I can see where spiritual abuse could happen on the other blog, especially if you are still processing pain and therefore say something they all pounce on. We (those of us that blog there from our town) have found the opposite to be true -- for some reason a lot of what we say is ignored* -- we get the feeling that they (as a whole) don't quite know what to do with us. However, David Mackin has been very helpful and gentle with us and everyone else on the blog -- he's the one I told you about that is writing a book about the fallacy of the celebrity pastor king.
So I wonder if we've blogged there at the same time Sleeping?!
*to give them credit, they have posted some ruminations from one of us before so we haven't been completely ignored. But we know that we aren't really part of their club, which is turning out to be a good thing since we are now starting up our own blog. If we were completely comfortable there we wouldn't make the effort to start our own. That's how everything starts I think-- being disatisfied with the current thing so you do something more tailor-made for you.
justaskin
So glad you stopped by our humble blog --please
drop in anytime. I have surfed alot of survivor
type blogs and i know exactly what you mean.
They often adopt the culture of the church they left.
Some are welcome to outsiders -some are not.
We definately are welcome to those not from our
past MFI related world --even MLM survivors are welcome. We see many similar characteristics in any kind of controlling culture from corporate to family to church.
So be welcomed and bring it on! We may not know the answers but we've found that just getting to vent can help.
Hi there Sleeping,
I've been following the conversations here and I am
so sorry you are going through a rough time. We've had our moments believe me where we didn't know if we or our faith could survive. Fortunately the Lord
Himself was faithful and if this was a lesson in learning to lean on Him alone its a good one!
Many of us behind this blog have been on staff at many churches so we know from what we speak --Pastors are often not schooled in counseling. Some of them need help or are in process themselves.
Especially in a Charismatic based church --teaching and education are not high on the priority list. My past mentor/boss told me 'I hate to do counseling more than anything in this world.'
This from a Senior Pastor!! I thought once I got out
'well then maybe you are in the wrong business than.' Now every pastor is not called to counsel
as we know 'counseling' in the psychological
emotional sense. However we should be able to get a handle on the whole counsel of God.
I've found going to mature Christians very helpful if and only if they are not in a Toxic Faith
system. My thought was that your husband should
just focus on going to counseling for a while to get to the real root of the problems or fears. I know this isn't always popular in some circles --but we can get help there and running back and forth to a
Pastor --while meaning well --can just muddle the waters and cause confusion.
First step may be to get a new counselor. I have a a feeling they were recommended by your church.
How about outside counsel you can trust to keep it all confidential. Just a thought and we're rooting for you.
Go get the book 'Toxic Church' as fast as possible
and Boundaries. They will both be of great help.
Remember breathe your own oxygen first just like they teach you on the plane. You need to get stronger before you take this whole thing on.
What about separate counseling for you. It can
help.
Hi freedomthinker,
Thank you for following along.
I know that most pastors are not schooled in counseling. That is why we were seeing someone outside of the church. He was not recomended by the church. He is someone I have gone to for the last several years. He is the best one I have seen and believe me I have seen a lot of them over the years. I saw my first counselor when I was about tweny five years old and attending a church called Rhema Fellowship. If it had not been for my counselor at that time I would not have survived.(hint hint)
Anyway,our current counselor felt like we reached a place in counseling where my husband needed to go back to some places in his childhood where he had been wounded and let the Lord heal him . That is why he sent him back to our pastor. The pastor is not supposed to be counseling him.(we have a counseler for that)He is supposed to be taking him through some kind of healing process.
I did go back to the counselor myself and his advice to me was to focus on myself so that if the marriage does not work out I will be able to take care of myself and if it does work out I will be healthier and happier having addressed some areas where I needed to be built up. So that is what I have been doing and it seems like it is helping.
The problem I am having is more of a spiritual one (I guess that is why I am on here talking to you)but I will say more on that later.
Hi Sleeping,
Thanks so much for filling in the blanks. We can sympathize with what you're going through as we all struggle in different stages of healing. Its starting to ring some bells now w/ the Rhema thing from our last blog location. Does the name eunice ring any bells
as far as your last fellowship? Just wondering.
A blog that may help you feel better about your situation right now is SGM Survivors. I found it while doing research and wow is that an eye opener! It from survivors of a church originally called PDI in Washington DC and now called 'Sovereign Grace' or some such. Anything but grace there believe me! I knew some people who came out of there and it is a vortex if ever there was one! So jump over there for some interesting reading and trust me you will feel better or at least not alone. They are more formal and keep to their own group but it makes for good reading as we watch them try to untwist this spiritual abuse situation.
Hope this helps today --we're not alone.
Sleeping or anyone one else out there who is interested:
the address for that blog is: www.sgmsurvivors.com
At first I couldn't stand their intellectual approach to Christianity -but you start to understand that is their church culture so just get past it to the stories
they share -amazing control!
A footnote -it is "Joshua Harris's church
from the 'I kissed dating goodbye' book- fame.
Too bad they didn't kiss their abusive practices
goodbye.
Thank you for the information about the other blog freedomthinker, I will check it out.
Yes, the name Eunice does ring some bells. So does the name Gail. I heard their son Mark is pastoring a church in Idaho. Does that ring any bells? Warning Bells? ha ha ha.
Hi Freedom and Sleeping ~
Freedom: Thanks for the address to the SG Blog as I'm always thinking of going back over there but forget where. I wonder if we should include it on our front page on other blogs to detox by?
Sleeping: just want to clarify that you are always welcome here (not trying to get rid of you so please don't go away! we really seem to be on the same page and we love the way you say stuff) but you may benefit from reading what's going on over there too.
Yes, Mark is pastoring an MFI church in Idaho and we've heard it's more controlling than the controlling church we left. It's smaller so they can keep tabs on people more. Your Warning Bells line made me lol!!
Hi nojoke,
I have read some of the posts on the sgm blog and found them quite interesting. This spiritual abuse is all the same isn't it? It was hard to stay on there too long because I could not stand to see the abused getting attacked for being angry and bitter. What a time waster and taking everything off subject!
So was your former church an MFI church?
Glad you dropped back by Sleeping! :)
I remember Freedom saying that attack thing happens on SG and that they intellectualize a lot - not that there's anything wrong with thinking things through but there's something else there. But it IS good to know there are other people getting off dysfunctional ships. Their ship sounds even more tragically legalistic than ours was!
Yes, our former church is an MFI church.
I was just discussing MFI with another person who left former church who grew up at Bible Temple. She said that MFI can't really do much about any bad behaviors of their churches even if reported since they are just a fellowship of pastors. So there's no legal authority to do anything but talk to the pastor in question about what he's doing or not doing.
The teaching they all seem to share sure promotes pastor worship though and I think that's what binds them all together. They love to push the authority thing and want to keep that pastor worshipfest alive-- all in the name of Jesus.
In regards to what your friend said about mfi I agree that that is what they will tell you if you have a problem with your pastor but if your pastor has a problem with you it is a different story. I remember several times when Dick Iverson came to Rhema to straighten us out on some issue Gail Bryan was having with his church. And the same thing happened when Doug Cotton was having problems with his eldership. They brought in lawyers and everything else they could think of to intimidate the eldership and get them to back down. Yeah, it seems like they have all the authority in the world when it comes to keeping members of their congregation in line, but when it comes to confronting the pastor the upline disappears!
nojoke, How did you make your exit from your mfi church? Did you do the right thing and have a meeting with the pastor? Did you follow all of the so called rules only to end up with your spiritual teeth kicked in anyway? Do you think there is any way in the church world that these pastors could be dealt with and have a better outcome? Most of us just get tired of the abuse and leave. Is there more we could do before we exit? Is there more that could be done after we leave? Is it enough just to get away and warn others? Would anyone listen if we did?
Yes, I remember that whole Doug Cotton thread on the CBC blog! So you are so right. They are posers. They say they are one thing and really are another. That's what's so subtly confusing even being IN an MFI church. they talk out of 2 sides of the mouth and make you feel like you are the crazy one. But, we are onto them now arent we?!
Wasn't Gail the pastor who slept with women in his congregation?? What's there to straighten out?? He should have been ousted from ministry forEVER! never to return. I wonder if he was a Sociopath? How else could he repeatedly cheat on his wife and devestate the lives of the women he slept with as well as their families!
Where was the Rhema church by the way?
We left the MFI church in a completely unorthodox way. We finally realized the utter unhealthiness of the church and couldn't stay knowing what we knew. I'd love to share the story but dont really want to herald my identity at this point. In time I'll gladly tell the details. Let's just say it wasn't what they'd consider the RIGHT way. Truly, I think just getting OUT of there, no matter HOW you do it, is the right way because leaving dysfunction and abuse is the right thing to do!
Sometimes you just have to flee.
Yes, he was the one who slept with several women from his congregation.
What I meant by "straighten us out" is that in order to maintain control over the people, pastors will sometimes bring in someone from outside to bring a word or correction if they feel like they are losing that control.
Rhema was in Hoquiam ,Washington back in the 70's.
I was just kidding about the way you left the church. I know there is no right way to leave an abusive church. It is just a game the leadership plays when someone wants to leave. They make it hard for anyone that wants out for any reason.
Well, ya, I knew you meant that about 'straightening out' - I was just going off on it since just the very thought of their audacity makes me puke. I didn't know you were kidding about how I left. I'll have to remember the tongue in cheek thing more often!
Sleeping, have you considered starting your own blog? It's pretty easy and as you can see from our blog you can keep it relatively safe from view while practicing! If you do I would love to comment on it! You have so many great things to say -- your way with words, humor in just the right places, and the knowledge you've gained from all you've gone through.
Are you still commenting on CBC? I took your hint and found you I think ;-) And I quote, if this is you: "Why are these pastors always putting a bad light on people with problems? Don't we all have them in one form or another? I learned the hard way that if I wait until I get my crap together so I can help someone else its going to be too late. Those are the times I had to stretch, press, reach, ask, thirst, and dig a new well. The times I thought I didn't have what it took to meet someone elses need. I didn't. But when I stepped out in faith and did what I thought God was telling me to do he gave me the strength and the grace to do it."
If that's not helping someone, I don't know what is!
This one actually brought tears to my eyes "Imagine sitting down to break bread, and drink the wine of Christ's blood, at the table of love feasts, and looking into the face of your brother and sister, and reading the pages of their prophetic testimony of Christ Jesus in their lives - if only we understood the sacred value of the spirit in one another - and treated each other with the awe and reverence normally reserved for the printed book..."
You could blog first and then organize it into an E book! Of course, no matter what, I hope you still visit here. We don't plan on going anywhere. If I could get my coherts interested in commenting more often it would help. But I have an aversion to putting pressure on ppl since I had a lifetime of it put upon me. It's probably something I'll never get over. My husband doesn't quite get it even though he's good at leaving me alone about it. Still, I can only go to church when it's in me to go. Or any meeting for that matter. I've had a lifetime of meetings and I panick at the thought of sitting in a room with chairs all in a row. But I'm now way off topic. but oh well, this blogging thing takes sort of a meandering path!
Hi nojoke, No I have never considered starting my own blog. I can not even imagine that! I have considered journaling though. That way I could keep my crazy ramblings to myself. One of the reasons I blog is because I never used to be able to even put anything down on paper where no one could read it let alone out there for the whole world to see. I believe one of the ways people are abused in churches and in relationships is that their freedon of expression is taken away. When you are repeatedly told there is something wrong with you every time you open your mouth it begins to change who you are as a person. The message is be who I want you to be and do what I want you to do and we will get along just fine. People do not realize that just being able to talk about what happened to you in an abusive situation is healing because people that are abused do not have a voice. It has been silenced for a reason.
No I do not comment on citybusines anymore for the reasons I just shared. It was actually very healing for me to just put myself out there and have a voice for once in my life. It helped me to realize that I am ok even if others do not think so. I used to be so afraid of what others thought of me that it was almost crippling. So in that respect it was good for me. I also learned a lot from some of the people that understood spiritual abuse and the process that people go through to get healed. After awhile though I noticed that they have their little hierachy just like the churches they complain about. People spend a lot of time talking about how much biblical knowledge they have and do not really relate well to others that come on that are hurting. I think the sarcasm is hilarious but some of the blog contibuters seem to be there to establish their spiritual superiority and have that place of power over others that the abusive churches have. I guess it keeps their blog going!
The first comment you quoted is mine and I really did learn that one the hard way!
The second one is something I think I quoted from someone else trying to make a point. I think it was one of the contributers that can sure put it in writing but do not really have empathy for others when it comes right down to it. It sure sounded wonderful though!
Hey there Sleeping,
You said "I believe one of the ways people are abused in churches and in relationships is that their freedon of expression is taken away."
I totally agree with you on that. Freedom did a post on that here called "Freedom of Thought". Worse case, those who allow their voices to be surpressed end up in something like the polygamy cults in Texas. It's all so Stepford Wives. I hate it.
About the other blog you said, "After awhile though I noticed that they have their little hierachy just like the churches they complain about." True to human nature, sometimes the group mentality raises its ugly head. I think it's caused more from those who have joined them, than RP and Cat who freely share THEIR opinion and try to moderate the blog itself. When the atmosphere feels clicky from time to time it does cause some of us to feel a bit without, but oh well, they are friends and it's great that they have each other. I am beginning to learn that scenario plays out in any group so it's something to always watch for. There was a time it seemed a bit abusive but I'm remembering Cowboy and Rae and all that went on then. Cowboy especially had it coming. I'm sure CBC Blog is refining itself as it grows and they can continue to talk amongst themselves but as long as they don't completely ignore the rest of us like we never said anything. Newcomers seem to realize the rest of us are there so that's helpful.
And there is always a new voice that comes along and speaks well and brings new life into what lurkers have called the same old thing (the lurkers use the same old thing with their retoric too!) Someone like Ex-City Bible Slave who now lives in California working in the film industry. I don't want to belabor it -- just saying it's a great place to always go back to. I only comment when something comes to me and read it alot.
nojke, I agree with you about rp and cat. I get where they are coming from. I have used sarcasm and sick humor myself to get through this abusive church crap. In fact that is why I liked the blog in the first place. I could just be myself and let it all out sarcasm and all.
But then then as soon as I did the religious spirits( I agree wtih you it is some of the ones that have joined them.) would go into their very hi brow intellectual form of chrisianese loaded with all of those scriptures (how can one argue with the WORD OF GOD!)telling me how bitter and angry I was for relaying what had happened to me in a mfi church.
It just got old to try to join in on the humor and sarcasm and be jumped on everytime by one of the stuffed shirts. If cat or rp say something off color or sarcastic they laud them like a bunch of bootlicking butt kissers. It is just another worshipfest among the core group. That is the only reason I can think of that they keep them around. That and the fact that their long winded teachings or comments stir up so much angst amongst the readers that it keeps their blog going!
True enough S. I guess if you are gonna have a blog there's got to be something generating it and keeping it alive. As open and nice as it seems that RP and Cat are, Freedom and I both feel like it's definitely their world and they don't know quite what to do with us. It really irks us when we give out really good info and nada. but that's why we decided to get this one started.
Speaking of, this one is still somewhat hidden and we haven't done much to let anyone know it's here except for the invite you saw on cbc. guess I can investigate how to do generate more traffic but we haven't felt the urge yet. If you hadn't come along it'd still be sitting here virtually silent. i guess we are developing our blog legs or whatever. Just creating the blog, learning to post, learning to upload pics--one step at a time. And with that, getting to know YOU which is MUCH more important to us than blog stats anyway!! I've thought more than once that I wish we lived in the same town and we could do coffee!!
nojoke, you said "As open and nice as it seems that RP and Cat are, Freedom and I both feel like it's definitely their world and they don't know quite what to do with us. It really irks us when we give out really good info and nada. but that's why we decided to get this one started."
I totally agree. Don't you thimk that sounds just like the controling churches they are complaining about? We take a lot of baggage with us out of those places and if we are not careful we will turn around and do it to someone else if we have a chance. That is why they should be more open to others with different points of view about their experiences in mfi churches. But I think you are right they are only interested in information that supports their experience. There are many different aspects to what kind of abuse you will suffer in these places depending on the bent of the ones in leadership. With rp and cat it seems like their main complaint was tithes. With Rhema it was the eletism, legalism and adultry.
catalyst said:
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:43 am
I kind of think this whole “I had sex with my pastor” thing is overblown. So you had sex with your creepy predatory pastor. Who hasn’t made a sexual mistake in their lives. It happens. You chalk it up as a minor youthful indescretion, promptly tell everyone within 20 miles that your loser pastor took advantage of you, and then you move on with your life.
From this one comment by catalyst you can see that he does not understand this type of spiritual abuse. Neither does Joe Biblestudent or Samaritian. I could have told him the same thing regarding tithing." I kind of think this I got pressured to pay all my tithes to my pastor is overblown. So your creepy money hungry pastor wanted you to tithe all of your money to him. No one was twistiing your arm. Who hasn't given too much to their church once or twice in their lives? You chalk it up to minor youthful ignorance, promptly tell everyone within 20 miles and get on with your life."
Wow I never saw that particular post -- he blew off one of the worst offensives a pastor could ever inflict on a woman. No wonder you've washed your hands of them then. My one thought in trying to understand his callousness is he may minimize sexual abuse from a pastor because his old world emphasized the importance of sexual purity way too much. so the pendulem swings.
I'm afraid though that most Christians are impatient with the healing process and really can't figure out why ppl can't just move on. What irks me is when you feel you find a safe environment to air what's happened to you and then find out that it has it's own degree of toxic ignorance, you feel duped once again. Well, thanks for pointing out Cat's 6-23-07 out to me. Since I only go there in spurts I must have missed that one. It pisses me off that he was so callous with something so serious. Ppl who have gone through abuse of any form on their blog must be the #2 bain of their existence--#1 being the defenders of all things MFI who decide to help everyone forgive. Too bad they didn't tell us that they'd like us to move along and quit talking about healing and all that. I bet they threw a party to celebrate that we were starting our own blog so they wouldn't have to hear us whine so much. But we'd never know that would we, since they rarely acknowledge our posts.
Thank you nojoke for validating me on the blog thing. You will notice if you go back to the ousted pastor thread that I was very new to the blog and had just posted my first few comments before they started in. I think just having my say with those religious types and the support from others like the detox church group helped bring balance and healing even if they never got it. It is sad because that is one of the greatest flaws in the mfi organization. It was actually started by Dick Iverson to provide a place of support for pastors that had "fallen" into such sin. And it is still going on. Just look on your computer and you will find all kinds of sites for pastors that have "fallen" and all of the support that is out there for that. I did not find any for the victims they have left behind in the churches they devastated and the lives they destroyed. What they do not understand is that these people are predatory and using their position of power and authority to take advantage of people. It goes along with the other mindsets everyone is complaining about. These people are like a kid in a candy store when they become pastors in these types of churches. Men can see it when it comes to them getting all of the position and power and money and lifestyle and all of the other perks they take for themselves. Some of them just take it a little further and decide to have a few women from the congrgation along with the other fringe benefits. But men do not see it that way. Everything else they understand because it affects their wallets.
Gail Bryan was sent to our communtiy to pastor a church with a history of sexual immorality. He was an actual predater and was using his position and power to take advantage of women he was counseling. Ones that were having trouble in their marriages.
Rod Hill is another one that came to the harbor from somewhere else. Everyone always wants to be just like them and there is an immediate following because people are attracted to the outward fakeover.
The reason these types are so friendly is that they are trying to get into womens pants. But since they are christians that is the furthest thing from peoples minds.
So you see the church is still in the dark ages in regards to this kind of abuse. They are trying to pass of what Gail Bryan did as an affair. Something normal that all men could fall to if given the right circumstances. That is the lie that keeps this going and the constant negative response to anyone that sees it for what it is. It is really another area where the church is so far behind the world in regards to pastors or priests that sexually prey on women or children.
Hi Sleeping,
I'd been away for a while but had to jump in here on this last comment!! I am astonished and amazed that I too missed what Catalyst said to you on City Business Church Blog--if anyone wants an address!
Sarcasm is one thing and yes I agree it has helped me immensely to say the comments as sarcastic as I can about the slimy behavior we left, but this was unbelieveably callous and I am offended for you.
Whew got that off my chest! Glad you came over here where hopefully there is some healing and humor laced in to save our sanity.
Jerks! No other word for it! Yes you are more than right that taking money is one thing but this sexual predator is beyond compare and they will burn for it I'm sure.!
I don't mean just Gail but Frank Damazio and Wendell Smith and Ken Wilde and Dick Iverson -to name names and any who did not expose him!
For they are accomplices in my mind and anyone out there who is sane!!
I just cut out an article that the Catholic Church had to pay 1.5 billion dollars for their churches sins--I would love it if you could expose them and hold them for ransom to the tune of say "1 billion dollars"--see Austin Powers.
They are responsible for not
shouting it out that he was a Predator and I'm truly sorry.
MFI can wield their power when they want to in the form of power and pressure like they just displayed --in that lawyer scenario. . Oh Lord where is the justice?! Please bring it out and let the horse and rider fall into the sea. --There's my biblical background coming up --but we relate to the Israelites.
They are jerks and enablers and co-conspirators--right now I can't say enough bad about them as my own faith has been badly damaged.
We know the whereabouts of his widow--what have you heard there if anything about their legacy.
Not that it matters but if it repeats itself it wouldn't be total surprise. Now we get why they treated her as a bit of a leper at our last church. On staff but starving in government ( i kid you not) housing).
So where was the prosperity message then?
I just saw a show on the polygamous cult and women who got out but they are not the only ones being abused. Let it pour down justice please!
Going to rest now but i'm praying for you and glad you stopped by. signed still healing in the land
Hi anonymous,
I believe that Bible Temple thought that they did expose Gail Bryan. I just have a problem with their idea of exposing. It was dealt with about the same as the Catholic Church deals with their sexual predators. They might make them give a public apology in front of the church where they committed the offense. It is usually very vague so only the victims or people closly involved know what they are talking about. After that the congregation is instructed not to talk about it so as not to spread gossip. The offender is usually whisked away for a set period of time to get restored according to what the leadership decides is nescessary and then sent to another church to pastor and reoffend again. Gail Bryan had already done this at least three times before he came to Rhema and I believe he did it at least two more times after he left. I do not think that Bible Temple did this because they are evil. I believe it happened because they did not know that they were dealing with a sexual predator and were ignorant about the abuse of power and position.(WHY they do not know is weird but oh well) If a doctor or a lawyer or a psychiatrist, or any man in the postition of authority takes advantage of a woman in that way the world knows that is grounds for a lawsuit. They know that the woman is a victim just because of the position that the man holds over her.
On the other hand what I think the church teaches is that when men are in positions of leadership that women are going to be throwing themselves at their feet and trying to seduce them at every turn. How arrogant! What an insult to us as women. I am sure there are some cases where this does occur and that should be considered but why does the church look at every instance as if the poor pastor was taken advantage of by some sinful woman? That was not the case here. It was the other way around.
I belive this was the same attitude I encountered on the city business blog. I was pretty shocked when catalyst and joebiblestudent responded the way that they did. Joe even had the scriptures to back up his biased view. You can sure tell he was a student of Portland Bible College! Any one who is a product of that environment really needs to be open to the fact that they might be suffering from more that just a wrong doctrine regarding tithing and the prosperity movement. For one thing those closed systems foster a certain antisocial attitude towards people who are outside their circle. My best friend went to Portland Bible College and she is weird as hell in a lot of areas. She has had to work for years to get rid of some of the attitudes and mindsets she aquired there. She said there was a time in her life she would have killed someone like me and thought that she was doing God a favor! She never could figure out where I was coming from until God took her through her own hell at the hands of church leadership. So until you have been there..... do not attempt to go there.....
Hey anonymous! That was my last comment. I do not know why it said I was anonymous. I did not sign in right I guess.
Interesting. Reminds me of the Crusades--how they thought they were killing for God. I'm glad your friend is getting the layers off. It's so maddening how religiousness overtakes God original intent. Who would've thought that being in church for years could mess a person up so much?? I'm still amazed at how many layers need to come off of us!
I swear, these MFI churches are more cult-like the more I hear about them!
nojoke said,I swear, these MFI churches are more cult-like the more I hear about them!
It would be interesting to know how much of the criteria for being a cult MFI churches meet.
I wonder how many layers I will have to shed before I feel normal. Were we given a wrong lenz to look at life through?
Sometimes I want to just dump everything and walk away. It seems like I am so double minded. Trying to figure out what is my flesh, what is my spirit,what is just life,and what is God,gets exhausting. I don't think it was supposed to be this hard. Swimming up stream all of the time and going against the current of today's culture is hard in itself.
I guess we are in a battle but then the bible says his yoke is easy and his burden is light. Sometimes I just don't get it.
Do christians ever have any fun? I mean real fun. Before I became a christian I had a lot of fun. I had great friends, lots of hobbies, dreams, goals, and a basic outlook on life that was pretty good. It seems like the christians I have met spend most of their time at church and attending church related functions when they do go out. Boring.......
But then again we are supposed to be in the world and not of it! What does that really mean? I have given up so much of myself over the years. No only in my relationships but as a christian. I don't know who I am anymore.
My sister was reading me a portion of a book she is reading about enjoying life. She was reading me a list of things from a to z that you could do to build your life in the area of things to enjoy. You know,things like taking art lessons, riding bicycles,taking a cruise, gardening, going to an art museam, listening to music, refinishing furniture etc. When she got to the end I started laughing because there were about fifty of those things that I used to do regularly or had done at one time or another. I realized that the main thing that I am upset about is that I have allowed a church or another person to steal my right to be who I really am. Being a christian and being in a relationship should enhance your life not take away from the very essance of who you are. I should not have had to give up so much of myself. All those years of adding those layers of religiousness took away our ability to enjoy and live life.
Jesus said I have come that you might have life and have it more abundantly. I want that! How do I get it?
I think you are absolutely right-- we have been looking through a tainted lens. What's most noticeable about the MFI way of living is the joy is sucked right out of everything. In fact, in our former church if you were free spirited or joyful, you aroused suspicion. The leadership didn't trust that joy.
I can say one thing, these last few years have brought a new freedom to explore my own inclinations as well as losing that feeling of even having to determine whether it's God or not. All that Christian Culture Expectation to do this or that. Freedom is feeling like the rest of the world feels when you don't have to go to church on Sunday unless it's in your heart to go. We used to look at those who didn't go as the unchurched when we were the ones who weren't even really alive!
There's so much we need to shake off of us - all the obligations to do everything according to God's plan, or to serve where we need to serve or to give what we need to give. It's not that we don't care if we are in his will anymore, it's just that perhaps we aren't taking ourselves quite so seriously now. There's a new trust in him that he'll let us know if we veer off course. Deep down we really do want to be in his will but it's like he's releasing us from the obligation of it. Once we are no longer under obligation then it's easier to listen to what he may truly be saying or to be lead how he's leading.
I love what you said about your sister reading the book about enjoying life and then what you said about life abundantly. More and more, we are seeing that religion just kills off everything alive in us. Religion wants to control and make us slaves. I really really hate it. The true Jesus, on the otherhand wants us to be fulfilled and happy, even though we do suffer hardships as well; and out of that we can share him authentically with others.
If you want a completely new and fresh perspective of what God can be like, read "The Shack" just for fun. It takes God completely out of the gender box and shows how much love he has for us. It's fiction so it's fair game to use the imagination a bit. I won't tell any thing more so I won't give anything away!
Hope you got to do something fun over the weekend!! ;-)
nojoke, do you think that we were addicted to a church like others are addicted to alcohol, drugs ect. Are most of us coming out of the world with are own codependancy issues and ending up in churches that feed that in us? Are we all so desperate to belong to someone or something that we gravitate to unhealthy groups like MFI or others like it? Were we unhealthy people before we got into those kinds of churches or do even the most normal people end up the same way because they are taken in and decieved? How do we get free so that this does not happen again?
I have been thinking about the church I am currently going to. I really don't know why we are even supposed to go to church anymore. I know the reasons I have been taught to go to church. Like forsake not the assembling of yourselves together and coming together for corporate prayer and worship. Other than that I really don't know why. I don't even know if those are valid reasons or just guilt trips that have been put on me.
I would really like to know what kinds of expectations would be healthy when it comes to picking out a church or figuring out if the one you are going to is OK. I have been taught that it is selfish to go there expecting something for yourself, to go expecting to give and serve and keep your eyes on Jesus and not on the people or you will be disapointed every time. I know there is some truth to that but don't we have a right to be a part of something that works both ways and if it is just one sided that we have a right to be questioning whether or not that is where we are supposed to be?
It seems that my whole life has been lived to be poured out on others without the right to expect anything in return. That is the message I have gotten in church regarding my obligation as a christian and also as a wife. I know that we are to serve one another but don't you think that would spread around to me once in awhile or maybe there might be something wrong if that is not happening?
I attended a ladies meeting last week at the church I go to. It is once a week and seems to be alright in that the women are wanting the Holy Spirit to show up and do something in our midst. No games, just wanting something real from God. The woman that is leading the group is someone fairly new to the church but she has had a large ministry elsewhere until she moved here to retire with her husband. So people recognize her and have great respect for her ministry and giftings. Last week she mentioned that she and her husband were going to be celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary and she was going to have a gathering at the church for her friends and family. Right away a couple of women volunteered our whole group to do the food for her and anything else she might need to pull this off. She was so blessed and felt so supported by everyone and probably went home feeling all warm and fuzzy. Don't get me wrong, I think that is what should happen when someone among us has a need. It is just that it seems like the only ones that get these kinds of needs met are the ones that are in leadership. I know that the pastor and his wife have had people helping them throw birthday and graduation parties for their kids. My friends husband is a building contracter and built them a house for a great deal. Some of his crew go to the same church so they donated their time for free and did most of the finish work for nothing, others landscaped their yard and I helped my friend pick out all of the interior paint, carpet, vinyl, laminate, fixtures ect. I don't mind doing any of this but why does this only happen for the leadership? When one of us plain folk need something everyone is too busy and would not even consider it. Why do people only have time for the leadership and not others that might need things too?L Why can't we all benefit from belonging to a group of people that are supposed to be serving ONE ANOTHER instead of just leadership? It is no wonder leadership can't relate to our pain when we go to them and try to talk about our experiences in the same body of people. They are not experiencing the same thing at all and never will. They don't get that others are not having the same experience there as they are.
Until people start recognizing the ones working in the trenches along side of them and quit wanting to rub elbows with the leadership I can't see how there will ever be unity like they talk about. The only ones that are united are the leadership and the ones that come together to serve them. The rest of us just stay on the fringes dying on the vine.
"I would really like to know what kinds of expectations would be healthy when it comes to picking out a church or figuring out if the one you are going to is OK. I have been taught that it is selfish to go there expecting something for yourself, to go expecting to give and serve and keep your eyes on Jesus and not on the people or you will be disapointed every time. I know there is some truth to that but don't we have a right to be a part of something that works both ways and if it is just one sided that we have a right to be questioning whether or not that is where we are supposed to be?"
I figure that is you SWTE!
Yes, you have a right to ask questions. In fact, it's more about being discerning than swallowing everything just because a pastor says it. I just posted the following points on the CBC blog and I'll copy them here. I was talking about the retraining the Holy Spirit is giving us in following the true gospel instead of one of works (it was in response to what a guy name Negrodamus said):
1. When you do listen to a teacher let it be a teacher who speaks about grace often with the practical application of the Bible — i.e. how to apply that grace to your everyday life.
2. Take a Sunday off from church when you feel led! Having the freedom not to go to church when I sense it’s completely out of obligation has been so helpful to me. If I need to sit one out I do and listen to Bob on TV, play my piano before the Lord and what not. A lot of Christians may not understand it but oh well. When I do go the next Sunday it’s in joyful worship to the Lord and to be strengthened in my faith. You just have to listen to the HS for that day. I’ve found that when I fight against the peace and do the obligation thing, it doesn’t go well anyway.
I guess what we have found most freeing SWTE is we are attending a church that concentrates on grace and teaching the Bible verse by verse in the context of grace.
You may want to jump over to cbc just for this post on true gospel vs false gospel bcz the guy explains it better and why say it all again here right? here's the link: http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blog/2008/05/28/true-gospel-vs-false-gospel/
You also asked: "do you think that we were addicted to a church like others are addicted to alcohol, drugs ect. Are most of us coming out of the world with are own codependancy issues and ending up in churches that feed that in us? "
Yes, that has been our consensus here. And we enabled the bad behavior of the leaders by staying at the church.
You asked: "Are we all so desperate to belong to someone or something that we gravitate to unhealthy groups like MFI or others like it? Were we unhealthy people before we got into those kinds of churches or do even the most normal people end up the same way because they are taken in and decieved?"
Yes to both I think. Some of us are more desperate to belong depending on our life circumstances. Those who don't come in desperate can be taken in by the subtely of the gospel of works. It seeps into us if exposed to it for too long. Why do we stay there that long to become exposed? Some other hunger drives us on. The belonging factor or wanting to prove we are as good as the pastor family. There is something that keeps us there.
Your next question: "How do we get free so that this does not happen again?"
That's what we are on a quest to find out. If we ask the Lord to keep us from repeating what we now recognize as co-dependent behavior, then He will certainly answer that prayer. Anything that reminds you of the dysfunction of before should be a red flag to you. Trust your inner instincts and don't fight them. We all had red flags before that we explained away with religious rigamarole.
You asked: "I know that we are to serve one another but don't you think that would spread around to me once in awhile or maybe there might be something wrong if that is not happening?"
Yes. excellent point.
You ask another excellent question. Actually all your questions are worthy of asking and show that you have a discerning mind and heart!
"I don't mind doing any of this but why does this only happen for the leadership? When one of us plain folk need something everyone is too busy and would not even consider it. Why do people only have time for the leadership and not others that might need things too?L Why can't we all benefit from belonging to a group of people that are supposed to be serving ONE ANOTHER instead of just leadership?"
This is what we had to deal with the entire time at Capital. But it goes on everywhere. It's a human tendency to suck up and get close to leaders? Why is that? Maybe Dr. Phil's question is the answer: "What's the trade-off" or "What's in it for you?" Leaders have something (God knows what!) that people want: Status, power, usually more money, seemingly more knowledge, and in the church people think leaders are closer to God. If I'm closer to the leader, I can gain more and it strokes my ego, making me feel important.
I love the conclusion you come to at the end and I totally agree:
"Until people start recognizing the ones working in the trenches along side of them and quit wanting to rub elbows with the leadership I can't see how there will ever be unity like they talk about. The only ones that are united are the leadership and the ones that come together to serve them. The rest of us just stay on the fringes dying on the vine."
I do hope that God is in the process of changing all this in the body of Christ. It makes you wonder if we can change short of disaster or persecution. There are enough of us exitting the megachurch leader worshipfest world that it will hopefully impact the way the church is at large. Right now the important thing is to find a place where you can walk in grace and no longer feel bad about what you aren't doing for the Lord. Is it of the true gospel of Grace or is it of the false gospel of legalism. Ask the Lord to lead you to a spacious place of freedom (Ps 31). He will because He loves and cares for you like no other.
Keep us posted too!!
Thanks for the pointers nojoke. As far as implementing any of them right now I think I will have to wait. Concerning no.1 I don't have a clue who would know how to tell me about applying grace to my everyday life and I don't have the self esteem to walk across the street let alone look for another church right now. No 2, I have taken so many Sundays off I could care less if I ever go back. I took the cure on the obligation thing a long time ago. I was released from legalism about 30 years ago. Rehma, remember?
I was on the city business blog a while back and did read the comments on gospel vs. false gospel. I thought the comment that negrodammas wrote about all of those points was perfect. I asked myself that same question many months ago when I was going to church regularly. I used to take all those notes about all of the points and then the next sunday take more notes with more points until I realized that I had never really done anything with them and probably wasn't ever going to, so I quit taking notes. But to tell you the truth I feel just as overwhelmed when it comes to understanding grace. Sometimes it all sounds like a bunch of religious mumbo jumbo now matter which way you slice it.
As far as sucking up to the leadership I never did play that game. I think when you are in leadership or involved in the inner circle in these types of churches at least you have some good memories looking back until the light starts to dawn. From what my friend says(she
went to Portland Bible College and was involved in ministy for about 20 years) she was quite content with her status and position until she ended up on the outside of the inner circle. From what I can figure out from talking to her is that some of us are called to minister in the church and some of us are called to minister outside of the church.(this could be another load of crap too) Take my friend for instance. She and her husband had a singing ministry for years and when they were not doing that she was very involved in everything that went on in the church. She loves it. They are still looked at as leadership material no matter what church they attend. I on the other hand am not interested in ministry in the church at all. I don't mind helping out when I see a need or feel like the holy Spirit is leading me to participate in some way but my heart is outside the church walls in my family and my community. I really never cared what the leadership was doing. Or the ones sucking up to them. I just wanted to learn all I could about being a christian so I could take it home with me and have something to offer those around me that needed Jesus. But there never has been much teaching about taking it outside the four walls. Just a lot of guilt trips because I was not interested in being a church groupie. So as you can see I am not suffering from not fitting in to the inner circle. I always knew I didn't belong there. I am suffering because I wasted my whole life looking for answers for my life while people in leadership were having a good time at my expense. I never had the luxury of thinking everything was great. I never did go for the weirdness. I had never been in church before and knew I wasn't going back to the world so I have been stuck between the two worlds all this time. I have never fit in either one. I could not go back to my old life and I could not get a new life as a christian. I guess that is why I am so angry. I just pray that the Lord can restore the years that I have wasted looking for something that was never there. I don't think the church knows what to do with real people. Unless you are willing to be cloned or turned into a stepford wife or a fakeover I really can't see wasting any more of my time. You know, like the saying "What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over again expecting to get a different result."
Wow sleeping, it's great that you were released from legalism 30 years ago. I was in a more legalistic church (even tho they think they aren't legalistic) for 20 years and so I'm still getting lefover stuff off of me 3 years after leaving.
You said:
"I am suffering because I wasted my whole life looking for answers for my life while people in leadership were having a good time at my expense. I never had the luxury of thinking everything was great. I never did go for the weirdness." I feel I was more like you in that way too - I tried to avoid the leadership thing but after awhile our turn came around as it does there since so many ppl leave. I suppose in that environment saying no to leadership is like saying you won't serve God. But I never quite fit in since I tend to be more free-spirited. They never quite knew what to do with me.
When I was there my ministry did become outside the church with my music and I realized that's where I wanted to be. It wasn't so much a 'ministry' as it was the only outlet for my music which seemed to fit downtown in coffeeshops and such. It never did fit in the church. It's funny how you are talking about 2 worlds bcz that's exactly how I felt and still feel about fitting in, or not fitting in. Bcz I do have a spiritual side to my music the world doesn't quite know what to do with me. Bcz I don't write worship music, the church makes it clear that I'm not quite acceptable. So I guess I just can't win and it makes me feel pretty alone sometimes. but gotta stay true to my own voice. i'm not gonna drink the cool-aid in either world.
I even wrote a song about it. I think the church needs to embrace more of what goes on in life beyond the spirit and I think the world needs to embrace a little more of the spirit.
When you say: "But to tell you the truth I feel just as overwhelmed when it comes to understanding grace. Sometimes it all sounds like a bunch of religious mumbo jumbo now matter which way you slice it." I hear ya! maybe all we can do with grace is take it as it comes. . .
You got me nojoke! I meant I was released from the obligation to go to church everytime the doors were open. When you stay away for 10 to 15 years it just sorta happens.
As far as legalism goes I still have many layers that need to come off. I really do think the key to all of this is getting a good understanding of what grace is like you said. Instead of finding a church do you know of any books you could recomend instead?
Ditto Sleeping. Not sure how long it will take but oh well, at least we are on what feels like the right path.
I'm currently reading a book called "The Shack" and in some ways it describes grace. The guy who wrote it is from Washington I think.
Also, Ann LaMont's books have helped me alot: "Travelling Mercies", "Bird by Bird" and "Plan B"-- and her latest I haven't read yet which is "Grace (Eventually)" so I'm gonna have to go get that one!
Here is an excerpt from an interview with her and she describes a thought on grace:
"Grace is that extra bit of help when you think you are really doomed; also, not coincidentally, when you have finally run out of good ideas on how to proceed, and on how better to control the people or circumstances that are frustrating or defeating you. I experience Grace as a cool ribbon of fresh air when I feel spiritually claustrophobic. Sometimes I experience it as water-wings, something holding me up when I am afraid that I'm going down, or the tide is carrying me away. I know that Grace meets us whereever we are, but does not leave us where it found us. Sometimes it is so small--a couple of seconds relief here, several extra inches there. I wish it were big and obvious, like sky-writing. Oh, well. Grace is not something I DO, or can chase down; but it is something I can receive, when I stop trying to be in charge.
We communicate grace to one another by holding space for people when they are hurt or terrified, instead of trying to fix them, or manage their emotions for them. We offer ourselves as silent companionship, or gentle listening when someone feels very alone. We get people glasses of water when they are thirsty."
http://www.amazon.com/Grace-Eventually-Thoughts-on-Faith/dp/B000PDYW0G/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1212706532&sr=1-1
Hi nojoke! Just wanted to let you know that as soon as things settle down I am going to get some of the books that you have suggested and start reading. I had to give up self help books for awhile because I just got tired of trying to figure it out and felt like I needed a break from it all. There is only so much navel gazing one can do before it starts to take its toll. I think it is one of the symptoms of the codependant. The abuseer never wants to do a damn thing about their problem while the codependant spends all of their time trying to survive by reading every self help book and turning over every rock to try and stop the pain. I was reading one of your posts about the mfi way of living sucking the joy out of everything. Why is that? I'm sure it must be connected to grace in some way because I sure don't seem to have any joy or grace in my life since being involved in these churches and the current relationship I am in. You also said when you try to be free spirited or joyful it arouses suspicion. I have been fighting that for thirty years! Why is that? Does it make them feel like they are losing power over you if you get too happy? What are they afraid is going to happen? It sounds like one of the unspoken rules in the dysfunctional families. DON'T GET TOO HAPPY OR TOO SAD. Here are some other ones. 1. DON'T TALK.
2. DON'T TRUST.
3. DON'T FEEL.
4. WE ALL AGREE NOT TO NOTICE.
5. WE ALL AGREE TO ACT AS IF ALL IS OK.
6.WE ALL AGREE NOT TO NOTICE OUR NEW PAIN.
7. WE ALL AGREE NOT TO NOTICE OUR OWN EMBARRASSMENT.
8. WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE.
9. BIG BOYS DON'T CRY.
10. LITTLE GIRLS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE NICE.
11. ELDERS ALWAYS DESERVE RESPECT EVEN IF NOT DESERVED.
12. CHILDREN SHOULD ALWAYS OBEY THEIR PARENTS.
13.KEEP FAMILY BUSINESS IN THE FAMILY.
14. WORK FIRST - PLAY LATER
Those sound a lot like the rules we followed in the mfi churches don't they? Maybe all of those leaders are just a bunch of closet alcoholics! At least a bunch of ADULT CHILDREN OF ALCOHOLICS. I am sure of it!
Hey Sleeping! what a great list! and yes it sounds like the same church garbage we were fed in MFI. Maybe it's because the cornerstone of MFI was laid by a man who had an abusive father (don't recall if he was physically abused but I think the story goes that his dad was a hard 'taskmaster' and there was verbal abuse). And then, given the heavy religiosity that prevailed in the body of Christ in the early days (not that it doesn't exist NOW!), no wonder the entire structure is 'leaning like the tower of Pisa' as Freedom would say!
As far as the books go, I totally get that about the self help book genre. I do think reading is personal, so read only books that really peak your interest. I'm really into reading but usually read fiction! I love intrigue and espionage and murder mysteries and epic tales of families . . . so I'd say I read one non-fiction for every 4 fiction books I read! Books like 'The Secret' and other Oprah list self-helps don't peak an interest with me nor do the how-to's in the Christian bookstores. The only reason I have read these books on Toxic Faith etc is to try to get over the fall-out of being in a controlling church and what it did to my faith. Actually most of these books Freedom discovered and read first and when I did finally read them I found they helped me! But the Anne Lamott books I happened upon through my sister in law who is a left wing liberterian (and i LOVE that about her!) and I was reading those in the MFI church as a pastor's wife!! (hee hee the senior pastor and wife wouldve had a COW if they knew I was into reading books by a Christian Democrat from SAN FRAN along with all my John Grisham, David Baldacci and Rosamonde Pilcher books!)
Well, must get back to work - i've been meaning to comment back for so long but had a busy couple weeks but am finally free again. So, to be continued i hope ;-)
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